Kindred and Computers, Revisited
by jachilli
As a followup to the other day’s technology and Kindred post, in the context of a video game, the relationship of vampires to technology can affect not only your gameplay, but also its presentation. While Vampire: The Masquerade has typically eschewed what Swede and I call “science vampires,” the vampires in the source material themselves have never actively shied away from science and technology, except when doing do has served as a thematic element. (And by “science vampires,” we mean vampires whose origins can be explained scientifically, as with the vampires from the BBC Ultraviolet series or the we-don’t-really-drink-blood-we-drink-this-chemical-fluid-so-there’s-no-moral-ambiguity-to-liking-us vampires from Underworld. The Kindred of the Masquerade have always traced their origins, at least in the West, to the Biblical Caine, who murdered his brother Abel as an offering to God and was cast into the Land of Nod by way of punishment.)
If I told you this was a vampire, would you believe me? It’d be a hard sell, because the focus here is on the technology.That digression aside, gameplay using technology as set dressing is really a slider — how much is just right and how much takes the attention away from the vampires and puts it on the gadgetry. Weirdly, even using technology that’s available now can skew that feel a little much toward a “science vampires” or even cyberpunk feel. Vampires using social media? Sure, no problem. Everyone has a computer. Vampires using firearms? Sure, no problem. Vampires using Large Hadron Colliders or controlling his prey’s mind with biopharmaceuticals? Now you’re starting to get a bit squirrelly. A vampire firing a railgun with a fragmenting ogive warhead? Get out of here.
Even here, part of the slider is the scale. Maybe a Ventrue is the controlling owner of a multinational that’s developing biopharmaceuticals or manufacturing railguns. That’s fine — most of that stuff is happening offstage, and gives the vampire an explanation for why he’s crazy rich. But when the focus shifts to that technology, that’s where the “vampire” part becomes tangential to the tech specs.
Beyond gameplay, once you’ve got vampires, that dictates a certain amount of look and feel for your game as well as the content. Naturally, you’re going to be overcoming challenges appropriate to vampires, whether that means your challenges are other vampires, werewolves, zombies, mortal monster hunters, whatever, in a modern setting. In sophisticated parlance, you want your vampires doing vampire shit in a vampire setting, otherwise why would you have bothered making your game about vampires?
The EVE UI does a great job of suggesting an elite capsuleer, who has command talents and information-sorting abilities at a far greater potential than normal people. But it would be completely wrong as a vampire UI.That look and feel also extends to UI, too, which is often taken for granted during the gameplay experience. But the technological aspect is appropriate here, too. You wouldn’t want the same, equally “modern” UI that the espionage technothriller Splinter Cell games have, even though they both take place “now.” As we’ve said before, implicit to vampires is a sense of history, but too much historical affectation can push the UI into a more “fantasy” look, as if everything is on a wizard’s scrolls. It’s a difficult balance to achieve, because you want that implied sense of vampires being timeless in addition to the idea that their timelessness culminates in the here and now.
And then there’s the part you can’t account for, the question of taste. In the previous technology topic, check out the responses from Valamyr, Russell, Lyte, and Peter. Personal preference is also a slider, but it’s the only one in this context that the designer can’t control.
I’m also leaving out a key element of UI and gameplay visuals in a game like this. What is it?
Part of it is thematic, though: It’s the sense of decay. A Nosferatu on an ancient CRT monitor driven CRT driven computer feels more right than one on a top of the line MacBook. The Ventrue on a MacBook? Feels better, but I’d emphasize how “factory default” the computer is, re-emphasizing that sense of stasis.Really, I think that’s the key. Technology is, by it’s nature, dynamic and ever changing. That’s in direct antithesis to vampires.
What I like with Justin’s blog is that through the discussions he suggests, he unveils tasty morsels about the design vision of WOD.I can see and appreciate the nuance of wanting to balance the “old” feel with the presence of new technology. It suggests he’d like the game to portray modern tech but yet not to place it too “front and center” in either gameplay *or even looks*, as emphasized by his analysis of interfaces as key elements to “set the mood”.So if you hear the shoveling tonight, its not the Sabbat burying their young so they can claw their way out, its me burying my smartphone-interface, along with my vision of a Camarilla pack hunting with bluetooth headsets, cause its cheaper on willpower than Telepathy. ;) Unless others at CCP have vastly different ideas, all this suggests a conservative interface, where the modern (say glossy black with crimson overtones) mixes with the ancient (a thorny rose, a few gothic carvings, symbols of clan or sect…) and a gameplay that references the possibilities of technology without putting them too much into evidence. (You can own tech stuff and weapons but the Sword of Dracula will always be better than the new gun the army just came out with. Certain things that could make the game feel like Shadowrun rather than Vampire will likely only happen through allies or plot devices.That does sound a little low-tech given my “Preference Slider”, but I can live with it thematically. I do hope however that the game includes a Computer/Hacking skill of some sort, and that it be one of the biggest assets of neonates who invest into it. Seriously, keep it low key, but make it rock, because in our world, it should :)
Going on the Sci-fi side of things is ok as long as its realstically plausiable with current technology but nothing over the topId imagin that hunters sponsored by corporations would have high-tech equipment so Vampires would probably strive to do the same thing if they can.Some Technological advancement can serve you to explain things in an MMORPG, for example wild free use of global communication that was considered something of a fantasy during the early 90s when the technology was not that accessiable.I heard someone say a while back that we are growing closer and closer to becoming the Cyberpunk culture from old Sci-fi novels and looking at recent technological advancements I cant help but think that it is true.However Vampires will always be an unexplained supernatrual element and no amount of cyberpunk can distract you from it or from the occult surrounding such creatures.Playing a Vampire in gameplay that has disciplines, witchcraft and ESP, even if you leave it the way it is without tampring too much, I dont think the focus doesn’t rest on technology or material assets unless the player decide that he wants to play a “technologyical vampire” because thats their thing.A Vampire doesn’t need much of that technology, even without gadgets he can have:-Enhanced sense-Augmented physical capacity-Immortality-Desease immunityHis survival doesn’t depend on technology as much as mortals do and technology doesn’t help with the drinking habbits(Synthetic blood doesn’t work) So in in the way I see it naturally tech-savvy and Resources already fall into second or third priority with vampires.Thus I imagin a vampire would be more focused on his/her supernatural capabilties and social interactions since they are essential to survival in the WoD. Im all for IC technology that makes sense within the settings .What I dislike is OOC metagaming technology like: – the “All-seeing Radar” that reveals players positions at all time even if they are hiding behind a lead wall and lets you know if they are hostile.- The “All in one Auto-ID xray mindreader” that lets you instantly see player stats, name and guild even though you never talked to the person or anyone that knows him/her-The “Safezone invisiable force field” that prevents players from attacking or entering an area without fail or a margin of error.-The “Mindreading armor/cloths” that somehow magically tap into your CV/Resume and decide that if you do not have the right role or job you cannot wear them. Even if you are not too fat and it fits, no you cannot wear it.
Nice to see that ccp seems to be doing a good job on vampires :) Would be darn fun to work on as i’m a game designer who just graduated in skövde sweden. But one thing, you just have to have Tzimisce as a playable clan at the start or i will be a very sad puppy! :P And make it the old clan, not the new boring ones, i want reall fiends! :D
For me, one of the things that drew me in with the WoD (and Vampire: the Masquerade in particular) was the theme of the modern versus the ancient and mystical. Keeping that in mind, I really enjoyed the ideas that Valamyr presents on this page and the previous technology post. That bit about possibly having a modern smartphone be the explanation for tells and other communication and resource management really works for me.As for technology and the Kindred in general, I would hope that what you’re holding, wearing, shooting, etc. would be less important than how or why it’s being used. Stumbling upon a .45 pistol that adds +1 to my dexterity or a shiny coat of +2 to presence would really ruin my night. I’ve already played fantasy MMO’s long enough. I think I can count on one hand how many times equipment actually made a difference in the flow of the story in a significant manner for our tabletop Vampire games.Honestly, I think that to a certain extent, technology should be very transparent and in the background for a neonate. Want to make a phone call? Right click. Want to surf the ‘net to research a Ventrue elder’s possible front companies? Right click. Now if that same Ventrue elder wanted to do those actions? Maybe there should be obstacle in his way in the UI?I don’t know how character creation is going to work, but if there is the possibility of creating an older character, maybe the trade off for having more power would be more work in getting things done in the modern world using modern technology.”I’m also leaving out a key element of UI and gameplay visuals in a game like this. What is it?”The player’s avatar? Character customization? Tell us! We must know!On a side note: I just found this blog a few days ago. Justin, many thanks to you and all the fine individuals at CCP/White Wolf for countless hours of fun and drama for me since 1995 and counting.
Actually a problem of technology vs. supernatural was already solved by White Wolf in Werewolf: the Apocalypse. We had Glass Walkers and Red Talons and it was good. I think that in MMORPG it is reasonable to follow similar pattern. Give tech. oriented people bloodline or covenant fraction that groups around modern digital technology, tracing its roots back to inventors-artisans of 18th century with all that proto-technological marvels like water driven automatons or punched cards operated looms. Give them advanced abilities to use in game technology dealing with information (computer databases passwords, heavens access codes, police radio intercepts, access to in-game statistics of equipment and characters etc.).And give them enemies like government agencies with obscure occult background, experimental prototype machines gone nuts, werewolves and spirits of nature craving for their blood for their role in humanity advance. In this manner another layer of the environment-players interaction will be introduced with quests, locations, stealth-, violence- and political-oriented missions. And everyone will be happy.
A disfunctional marriage of technology and gothic horror, really any unhealthy pairing of two distinct genres and themes, is what I and some of my screenwriter pals call, “Too Much Marzipan.” Shyalaman’s SIGNS is a good example of this problem. We have aliens! We have God! Pick one, M. Night. The film is a mess of technology and faith. I once played V:tM with a guy who created a vampire who was a Virtual Adept in his mortal days. it was, well, comical.IMHO, vampires, like mortals, would use technology to fit their lifestyle and support their aims, ambitions, and daily tasks. The use of personal technology also serves the vampire in honoring the Masquerade’s basic rules to imitate mortals. No doubt, CCP/WW is already thinking about this, but this approach may allow the WoD MMO designers to develop a suitable set of character tech tools, not only highly useful but excellent status symbols that compliment the game’s gothic and moody production design. Vampires in film and TV are typically created to have high sex appeal so perhaps personal technology in the game can be a tool to enhance an avatar’s appearance and serve as a status metaphor, granted such tools must not only be cosmetically impessive, but allow the character to execute equally impressive actions. The sexier the tech, the sexier the functionality. Now, I’m not saying the tech should wreath the character as seen on Star Trek Online – the tech costuming is ridiculous.
I sit firmly in the camp which opposes itemization when it comes to WoDO. A kevlar vest which protects from staking will become a must have item and every vamp will walk around with one – under/over their evening dresses, tuxedos whatever. If you put spy gadgets in the game, players will be using them. Sure, this being a modern world technology should be represented, but the focus should not be in the bonuses and advantages items give to the player. Gadget vampires? no thanks.I’d love to see downsides to technology in game being represented. Gunfire should attract cops – response time based on location. Owning any piece of technology is a small threat to the Masquarade, as is owning a company if it is used for something illegal. Humans are good at tracing the paper trail to you when they start investigating. Sure your face was blurred in that security camera photo, but your cars licence plate was not. There are reasons why criminals don’t use credit cards, airplanes, cellphones etc. when trying to stay “under the radar”, and those same threats apply to vampires.When it comes to UI, I don’t want anything expressive in it. If we have to have an UI, I want it to be as unobstuctive as possible. Roses, blood drops, gargoyles in my UI – please no! I liked the menus in EVE, simple, transparent, you were able to handle large amount of data with it. The game world is there to portray the feel, UI should just give me the info I need and be out of the way as much as possible. Games which have no UI, or very minimalistic UI have always been the most immersive for me, it has even been a purchasing criteria for me for couple times.
Itemization and technology are probably two different topics. It sounds like CCP are going with a middle road regarding technology, a sort of “Conflict of the old and new”. I dig that, can live with it :)Itemization however is something else altogether. Id definite it as “How critical to gameplay and position on the player power curve will the acquisition of new objects in game be?”Since the previous post briefly touches the subject, Id say Id hope “Alot less than it matters in most MMOs” is the most common answer in this small community thus far, probably with good reason. Personally, Id like to see less dependency on objects than is common, but at the same time, I like to see some pretty damn powerful artefacts existing in the game world; its just that attaining them should not be part of the “Musts” of the gameplay. Your elder shouldnt be gimped because he doesnt have a few swords of Dracula on his hilt.But unlike some, I would also like to see meaningful magical objects. I loved the various powerups I could collect in Bloodlines for instance, they were all quite sweet. <3 my odious chalice. And they were powerful, and I want the same feeling when I find a relic in WOD. They shouldnt be gimped into being part of the “natural progression curve.” The magic should be there, and it should rock my socks like a Key of Alamut ;)
I agree with Valamyr and Lyte. Itemization can kill a MMO’s production design. Great, kevlar vests are the best, so everyone is walking around the Conclave wearing one. Lame. Love Lyte’s idea on tech drawbacks like the police arriving at the sound of gunshots, Also, he’s dead on about a vampire’s use of technology, or lack thereof. It would be fairly dangeous these days for a vampire to own several personal tech items and modern conveniences, granted in the WoD, vampires control so much of mortal society that use of personal tech and even credit cards can be done without concern.But, again, the tech and conveniences of today, fused into the lives of timeless creatures, can weaken the visual narrative.
“… granted in the WoD, vampires control so much of mortal society that use of personal tech and even credit cards can be done without concern.”It is impossible to control the data which you leave behind using airplanes and credit cards in the modern society, no matter how much control you have over the system.French vampire using his mastercard in Paris will have traces of its use in databases in France and in New York + backups. If the vampire uses his card to buy a train ticket in Paris what is he going to do?Assuming he has contacts in Mastercard who can make the payment dissappear (which is no small feat – really…) is he going to start the process every time he makes a small purchase? Want to make your private flight dissapear? If you have contacts in both arifields capable of editing flight data, there is still a lot of traces of the flight lying around in clipboards of the fuelling stations and airfield mechanics room which are also made electronic at some point later in time causing gray hairs to the accountans when fuel amounts and billable hours starts to come in concerning a flight which never existed. You would have to use rural arifields with small staffs totally under vampire control and even then data of your flight is stored in several radar sites logs along your flightpath – with flight number and data of departure and destination logged.Erasing the data as it is generated is enormous task where you would have to have a infinite organization running it. If you erase the data only after it starts to cause trouble, it is already too late. Someone already found the trail and he is after you! I never bought into this “total control of the society” thing vampires allegedly have, you simply can’t control it.
you Don’t need to wipe away the data, just make it meaningless.Really, so there are transactions on the mastercard system. To a David Smith who pays on time and got the card just before his european visit. He closed the account after missing a payment and being upset with the interest hike. He paid off the card in full.There, now your data is swirling in the entropy of millions of other stories just like it.Vampires can use all the modern conviences of society all they want, and with but a few gentle nudges in the right places can make tracking that information almost impossible.If you have perfect knowledge of the subject, down to various aliases then it’s trivial, but if you are only looking for ‘well dressed attractive caucasian male purchasing tickets on a train in france on this date…’…good luck with that.As to technology…one of the biggest things to stick out at me when reading KoE companion was the idea of a bunch of neonates listening in on everything an elder siad…because they put a bug in a vase. Because the elder wouldn’t think of looking for a bug, he’d check it for magic first, and then maybe some 60′s spy thingy not an itty bitty transmitter built into the lid.While Elders would be a bit smarter than that (otherwise they wouldn’t be alive, taken out by ancili making the jump to the big leauges or more swift on the update elders) technology useage is about the only advantage a neonate has.as for the missing UI piece to me it’s the way the game represents your resources. In this case blood and hunger and the beast.I would love it if the game slowly had your vision fade reddish as you got hungrier and eventually started to screw with your perceptions as the beast comes closer and closer to the surface.I’d love it if you were having an exchange with someone and the client suddenly has them pull out a weapon just to goad you into attacking, but that’s just me.
The danger comes from being tracked. If someone is interested of your movements, these electronic marks you leave behind can put date, time and location on your character. If David would be a Kinred and there is a hunter after him, credit card data will lead him to your location. Now the question is, do you know when you are being hunted? Is a vampire really going to be continuously doing those “gentle nudges” (what are they exactly?) protecting himself from the threat credit card use poses…. when he can just use cash?Which vampire has that amount of dots in contacts and influence to shield himself from the threat tech use poses? I don’t think they can just ask another vamp for a favor when shit hits the fan – without giving a major boon for return. Exp. which goes to influence and contacts which can mask your electronic signature could go for so many other more useful places. Creating several aliases which are good enough to get credit cards, passports etc is possible of course, but I have never created one in VtM simply because it is a waste of good exp.. Sure I’m down to letting players get away with the use of technology as long as they really have the skills, influence and contacts to do so. I’m making a case here that vampires tend to be very low tech for security reasons, for the same reasons as any criminal does when they try to stay “under the radar”. Can you give examples why vampires are different in this sense, why they are less threatened than a criminals are by modern technology?Keeping in mind that anything which threats masquarade is an existential risk to vampires, I think it is safe to say they take the threat of technology very seriously. In this sense Large hadron collider, electronic surveillance devices, railgun with a fragmenting ogive warhead are ok of course as using them you don’t leave electronic tracks behind, and I can see younger vampires using them with glee, Older ones know better. I don’t have anything against having this kind of tech in the game, as long as it is used tastefully. Story arch involving the LHC is fine. Anarchs getting their hands on a fragmenting ogive warhead and planning to take out the Prince with it is fine etc. – afterall it is 2010.
Personally, I think you are being a bit too rational in your assessment of the Masquerade Lyte, but this all boils down to playing taste of course.Sure, in reality, high ranking conspiracies are nearly impossible to pull of and just don’t exist – but to me, the fact that the world is indeed controlled from the shadows by supernatural monsters, sometimes hundreds of years old, is a large part of the feel of WoD.I don’t think the Vampire should usually feel threatened by humans. As you say, the Masquerade is of existential necessity to Vampires – then why shouldn’t the big players long ago have put their power to work and installed puppets in all those organisations that tracked their own. As long as you are part of “official” covens, you could imagine your tech use is being hidden by nice humans that slip your known aliases and creditcards from the table everywhere. Obviously, the vampire masters themselves would then be able to easily track other kindred. Again though, this depends on how much you’d want your tech to permeate the setting.Seeing how Vampire is, in my opinion, about intrigue and social interaction between powerful shadow players in a modern setting, it shouldn’t be tying down the players from doing high society things because of tech. Which modern businessman could go without a smartphone and email?You are actually likely creating attention if you don’t have a mobile phone or internet access as a young-appearing person today.I don’t think Vampire should be about pathethic beings constantly on the run from the law, as petty criminals that can’t leave an electronic trace. But of course, that’s flavour for you.BTW large hadron colliders, railguns etc… these things are rare. Rare things cause MASSIVELY more attention than some dude using his credit card somewhere. Unless you made it yourself (and even then, you would need rare parts you could track easily from producer to seller etc) this things will be written down and tracked everywhere they go. I can see a hunter-hacker following a vampires trail, but last I checked, they weren’t huge organisations that could just puppeteer law-enforcement however they wish, and so immediately catch them. And if they were, why wouldn’t vampires be able to do that?And for regular law enforcement… I’d say you don’t even erase the track. You call off the investigation. But again, I am probably just used to a less street-level style of WoD.
Naturally this boild down to personal taste. As an ST I tend to enforce the limitations of player characters because it makes contacts etc important part of the game play. Yeah, my stories are “street level” stories where the smiplest things can cause a problem to Kinred. For example calling off a federal investigation would be pretty hard thing to do for the players in my campaigns.”You are actually likely creating attention if you don’t have a mobile phone or internet access as a young-appearing person today.”Only if you have a public persona, if kine know you. My vamps tend to distain themselves from humans, live a life within their own community and not be public or popular figures among kine – ghouls, retainers serve that purpose.Would a vampire use social media? If your identity is found out, your facebook friends list leads the hunter to other vampires. You can uphold the masquarade in FB of course, but the purpose of FB is to be social. Status updates like, “Hey everybody, lets meet in the cotton club on sunday!” Or I really dont feel like going out tonight, Im just going to stay in my crib… can be a treasure chest to a hunter who has hacked himself on your friends list. Vampires themselves are each others worst enemies, would they feel comfortable giving out information like this to each other? If not, the why be in FB?Social media is something I haven’t touched in my campaigns, as I think this touchy feely inet community stuff is against their backstabbing crooked vampire nature. But of course if WoDO has facebooking vampires, I won’t turn in my grave… I probably just roll my eyes.
Thats all why I see as essential you should be able to play your ghouls. It’s an important part of the kindred cover and social interaction and technological approach when needed. So if the use of one 10-years-in-duty starts to be less viable, just kill it or replace it. 6 ghouls using credit cards randomly and sparsely for your needs seems like a very solid cover anyways.
This might be a very late message, but considering the look on the UI, wouldn’t the best be to make the bars, icons and what not be different dependant on your clan choice, with a stereotypical look of course?
Nosferatu could be all green and icky-looking, while ventrue could have theirs look like roman marble, etc.
Just a thought, something I’d find neat anyway.