Talking at Flowcharts
by jachilli
Task resolution systems. Oh, good heavens.

When these players' characters talk to an NPC, they're talking to the GM, who can improvise or rationalize a genuine personal response.
In many modern tabletop games, you have a core mechanic that resolves most game situations. Whether combat, occult research, technological repair, or fast-talking the security guards into beliving you’re supposed to be here, there’s a common system to it all. It might be a d20-based system, or perhaps it uses the storytelling rules, or perhaps it’s the One Roll Engine or the Coinematic Unisystem. It might be damned simple or it might have graduating complexity. Combat is probably more specific and complicated than the other situational resolutions. Tabletop RPGs do have their roots in wargames, after all.
Most importantly, though, tabletop roleplaying games have a GM: real, live, thinking (in most cases) rules arbiter and narrative director who can interpret dice rolls, take the role of non-player characters, and improvise situational results.
In most cases, you don’t have that in a video game. You don’t have a guy there who can, through informational relay and creative interpretation, change the results.
In most cases, that’s fine. Most games are designed to do one thing well, so the fact that there is no “hacking” resolution mechanic in Starcraft II doesn’t matter. Lara Croft doesn’t have a portrait-painting minigame. Minecraft isn’t “missing” cryptography.
In most cases, though, the gameplay designed for non-combat contested tasks is just the combat system with anemic set dressing and a whitewash vaguely suggestive of what you wanted to do. The vast majority of computer roleplaying games are designed with combat first and foremost. “Roleplaying” in a computer game context really means “advancement,” not “you take on the persona,” and as such, fighting stuff to level is your primary gameplay.

What if my character wouldn't say any of these? Then all I see is broken immersion and a game that wants me to play it on its terms, not mine.
Fast-talking or seducing an NPC with a social character in a computer RPG is usually just reskinned combat. You’re clicking the social attack button and subtracting that social attack value from whatever social defense value belongs to the NPC. You click your numbers at its numbers and eventually something happens, which is probably a text dump. It’s exactly the combat resolution system, except that combat has all sorts of nifty particle effects and fancy animated maneuvers and yomi-based move-and-countermove. Social interaction challenges maybe have some facial expression changes and your reward is READ THIS, FUCKER.
Combat has open-ended results, but when dealing with a computer-controlled NPC, the social interaction reward is either the linear plotline that you would have been on anyway regardless of your conversation, or it’s an extra handful of clicks through a dialogue tree (which is actually probably a dialogue diamond that’s going to likewise direct you back into the linear plotline that you would have been on anyway regardless of your conversation).
My big two offenders, largely because of their profile rather than doing it any worse than any other game, are Fallout III and Dragon Age. Both of these are basically combat engines with varying amounts of text piled into the interstices between combats. In Dragon Age, you can have extra cut scenes or dialogue options as a social character, but eventually, you’re going to do that goddamn quest or the game isn’t going to move forward. Fallout III lets you choose a flavor of additional dialogue text, but in no way does its claim that you can make any sort of character you want change the fact that you’re going to be firing that hunting rifle at mutants’ heads way more than you’re going to be Diplomacying the world into revitalization.
These are not “social interactions.” These are more obstacles to click through to get to the big fight at the end that you’re going to have to have anyway. At the best — at the very apex of what they can achieve — they’re lore-delivery vehicles. To paraphrase one of my recent favorite observations, an NPC is just an object you click to get text.

Clicking "mock" on an NPC is not the same as talking to a real person and having an interaction. Also, I'm pretty talented at UI design.
For true “social interaction” or investigation in a video game (to distinguish it from a tabletop RPG with a GM), the gameplay has to be different from the combat engine. If the combat engine requires me to select a target and then spam the hell out of the special attack buttons, then a social interaction engine that requires me to select a target and click the hell out of the “fast talk” and “devastating repartee” buttons is no different from that combat engine.

This guy thought he had a "relationship" with an NPC, and the truth of the matter was more than he could handle.
Further, when you put “social interaction” in a multiplayer game, and all it requires of the player is to click on some predefined sequences with an NPC, the designer is spitting in the player’s eye and insulting his family for three generations, at the very least. Social interactions are for interactions between players, not the limited-output constructs of the game. Whispering filthy innuendo to your PSP isn’t social interaction, either, so stop trying to tell a player that talking to an inanimate object is. This is a simulation of social interaction, just like videogame combat is a simulation of actual physical violence. Capcom doesn’t tell me I’m really engaging in some badass karate maneuvers when I’m playing Street Fighter.
Like I said, good heavens.

Totally agree. And I’d like to add that “RP-ing” in party chat in WoW isn’t really role-playing either. It’s like player text-dumping. If there can be consequences to your words, IN GAME, then you have something. So far online games have only managed to have us either do PVE (play a single player game together) or PVP (use the combat system against each other.
Of course how we make a real RP experience happen is a tougher question.
I don’t necessarily want to force everyone into “roleplaying” as lots of tabletop players know the concept, I just want players playing together.
God forbid there was an expectation to ‘roleplay’ in an RPG setting. I mean, people would actually have to consider their character. They might have to invest some manner of thought or background appreciation, or might even become vested in their character’s future then. It would be absolutely horrible to enter an environment where people were ‘expected’ to play their character as more than just a mutated and powered version of their own frayed and irrelevant psyche in an artifical world setting.
One of the things I have been considering (not that I actually have any sort of possibility in making a game) is the idea of creating an MMO platform that can be liscensed so that other companies can make their own games off of it.
Or the concept of simply a multi-player online roleplaying game, that the amount of players on a given server is controlled by the players (they’d perhaps rent out a section on the server). i’m thinking along the lines of how LARPs are managed.. and how bigger groups (like Camarilla) have larger groups.
Mostly I think people would be interested in a world they have more control over; but I don’t think people want to build that world themselves (thinking along the lines of “Chicago by Night” kind of supplements).
Also, (and I know the project you are working on is in motion and has certain goals in design and financially as well–which is awesome), maybe it is time to bring an MMO out that is built with RP in mind? It certainly would be a novel approach in the industry.
But I think even just addressing the idea of NPCs as “objects” or “text dumps” is great.
BTW, when is the next big news release of the WoD MMO? Are we gonna hear anything at GDC? Or will it be E3?
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Justin Achilli, Jim Chronopoulos. Jim Chronopoulos said: Talking at Flowcharts: http://t.co/tU3EfxY [...]
What gave you the impression the NPC dialogs were supposed by the author to be some sort of social interaction with you?
I’m not sure I understand this question. I’m not claiming that an NPC dialogue is a social interaction between the designer and the player. I’m arguing that the “set dressing” of the game challenge — an NPC is an obstacle to overcome or a content ATM — gives a very poor illusion of an actual conversation.
You just pitched it as “Social interactions are for interactions between players” at one point. Just asking about that.
In terms of real life conversation, most I have don’t involve any notable obstacle or result in any content – are actual conversations all that great to begin with? And conversations between a GM (via NPC) and player (via PC) aren’t exactly ‘actual’ conversations. They are more like how we think we talk, rather than how we talk.
Perhaps what you mean is that you would like dialog to resolve the content itself, instead of lead to content?
At first I thought: “What he’s trying to tell is that you can’t have a real conversation with a npc just like with your GM who is roleplaying your npc, at least in a videogame.” Then I read that you were writing about the mechanism behind the interaction and it finally made sense: “He wants the RPG to be more like an RPG and not sugar-coating the combat system with some words and calling it ‘social interaction’.”
You’re right saying that it’s just a simulation and well I barely can’t think of a way to get the computer work more like a real person GM, thinking about hours to work at that AI – well I’ll just call it like that – to react to some words the user inputted. It would be quiet awesome to have the illusion that you’re typing with the NPC like speaking with an actual person but it would be still an illusion.
So i guess we’re just have to rename the Roleplaying Game into Rolesimulation Game. We’re stuck with the computer who can just interpret logical problems and real interaction ain’t that logical most of the time – at least in my opinion it isn’t.
I hope i’m not that difficult to follow. I tend to jump between thoughts without any reason.
Greetings
P.S.: I like your UI design, it’s so simplistic. And sorry if I made some mistakes or spelled a word wrong, I’m not a native speaker. :)
What if you want a payrise in real life from your boss, and you go to talk with him on it – is that a, if not a combat system, a get what you want system suger coated with words? You want something, you try and use words to get it.
Callan you’re right in that regard that you’re “fighting” with your boss for a pay raise. But you can choose your words yourself. In a game you’re bound to the mechanic, to the words that are given by the game programmer and designer. That’s what i meant.
It’s the difference between choices of given statements and making the statement yourself. :)
I’ve played some games where the dialog choice reflected a philosophy that didn’t really match that which my character followed. I sort of had to compromise my character to fit down the channels of the dialog flow chart.
Apart from that issue, I don’t really see the benefit of making the statement myself?
As you said, good heavens. Thats a challenge you have on this game Justin. But if you guys do it as you want, I believe it’ll be a revolution in the very concept of MMORPG.
As said here, I too don’t see how interaction can be outside the scope of a “combat”. Yes it is sort of, but wait, lets call it a “dispute” instead. And yes such social interaction cant be made with an logical-predetermined-response-based NPC. So I tell you what I humbly think that could work:
Base the mechanics and game-player “interaction” not in the resolution of the plots, let this to be solved between players. But as said, players would only care as much as theirs social maneuverings have some relevance to them and an effect on the scenario. After all a base of any rpg is accomplishments. The hard part is how to make these accomplishments persistent in the scenario of a MMO. So how would the machine bring it up to a player? Example: the player accomplished to reach the rank of Xeriff, ok. As such, he has loyal deputees and ghouls (npcs or even other players) that would keep him updated of whats need to be done, when and where. The “machine” then brings up through some media that there is fire and killing in a building. Lets say its caused by sabbat players. The xeriff could go there and hastle them out, or maybe speak to another player – lets say a primogen – and convince him, through now yes, social interaction, dispute of interests, to “borrow” his police influences in order to keep the area restrict to civilians. You tell him that despite his wastes it would certainly give him boons, status, credibility, whatever, towards keeping the masquerade.
Now that was a social interaction as you meant Justin? Because that’s what I absorbed from your wise open-minder text. Thank you anyway for giving me the opportunity of such a brainstorm of a sort. I had fun anyway :P